[workaround] Negative Offset/Shift/Latency

[Simon]

Hi all

I've been muching on this for a while, and I'm considering making a very small DIN-MIDI Adapter with 2 tiny knobs: one for positive delay and one for swing.

It will be a "mini-device" packed into an adapter, which will take any MIDI and delay it by x ms as well as add swing to the clock (I'm not sure if adding swing to any other message would make sense?). Imagine like this picture but with one side male and one side female, you plug it in the MIDI output of your device and then plug a normal MIDI Cable into it.

adapter.png (39.43 KiB) Viewed 18081 times

So instead of the original idea of an add-on module for the Nome this would be an adapter you could use with the Nome but also with any other device.

[MPrinsen]

That’s a great idea!

Still, would love to have a built in positive delay for any of the outputs of my Midronome without the need of an add on module!

[Simon]

Just FYI, one of the Nome II owners did a simple test recording the metronome and the audio output of a sampler to see how much delay there was between the sampler and the metronome.

Setup was:

Code: Select all

Nome II -> metronome -> audio input
Nome II -> Beatstep Pro -> Boss Sp-303 -> audio input

The two audio inputs ended having about 10ms difference, which was very stable. This is a great example where a negative delay of 10ms on the MIDI Clock would bring the two audio tracks together.

[Simon]

To this day I am considering whether such a feature in the Nome is really needed or not. It seems very very few machines have large internal delays (which is the only case you would need a "per-output" latency).

So I plan on using this post/topic to list the potential machines with large delays which would require such a feature. If you know any and can prove the large difference with other machines, please feel free to add them here.

• This post from Steven: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1044389 ... 6468764400 mentions the Oberheim DX Stretch with Electrongate midi kit which seems to have a 7-8ms extra delay compared to his CR-78

[fmq75]

To this day I am considering whether such a feature in the Nome is really needed or not. It seems very very few machines have large internal delays (which is the only case you would need a "per-output" latency).

So I plan on using this post/topic to list the potential machines with large delays which would require such a feature. If you know any and can prove the large difference with other machines, please feel free to add them here.

• This post from Steven: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1044389 ... 6468764400 mentions the Oberheim DX Stretch with Electrongate midi kit which seems to have a 7-8ms extra delay compared to his CR-78

Hi Simon

It‘s been a while since my last visit but i just wanted to check if anything has changed in this regard To avoid pesky midi jitter and latency i use analog clock whereever i can and my setup worked fine this way for a while. But now i bought a Roland TR8s (not here yet) and based on my own experiences with Roland stuff i started to look out again for options to preshift a midi clock. I still don‘t know why so few people voted for it when we had the chance to do so. It‘s not a topic when using DAWs cause they have such options but i‘m using an Oxi One as Master now and Logic pro only comes into play as the last step (recording). The Oxi is then clocked analog because jitter but that‘s another story The Oxi is great as a master but also missing an option to….you guess it

Here is a list of devices i did own and carefully tested. For most of them it‘s easy to find the confirmation via google (from other people). First three are linux based so they are computer in a box. Not a surprise they have latency. They are useless as slaves without additional“help“ but i assume people prefer to use them as a master and then there is no need to shift the clock arround. This i all via Midi DIN not even USB which i always avoid.

1. Maschine Plus
2.MPC One (means the mpc live must have this problrm as well)
2. Akai Force
4. Ableton Move (so i assume the push 3 is affected as well)

More examples

Rolands first three Boutiques have a 15ms latency via midi din. Not only sync but midi notes as well (they really screwed it up here).

JU-06
JX-03
JP-08

Then:

Roland T-8 which was a surprise cause it‘s a drummachine and a „mini 303“. Works great with analog clock (but without reset), not so much with midi.
Roland MC 101 (not much but it‘s there).

And a very popular new machine: The Roland TR-1000. Again, they screwed it up. Big time. It has huge latency as a slave (analog clock currently also not usable at this point afaik) and massive jitter when used as a master. I don‘t own it but the forums are full of complaints. In a hardware setup (slave) it‘s not usable without a multiclock (which many people do but this thing is still too“much“ for my case).

I would still say there is a place for a smaller machine than multiclock that does the trick of preshift a midiclock There must be more examples than i listed here, maybe i even forgot something that i did own myself.

[Simon]

Thank you for the long feedback

A lot of people think of the Nome as a "smaller mutliclock", because it is well, smaller, while in fact the Nome can do so much more than the multiclock. I guess the price difference also emphasizes this. Maybe we should sell it for double the price, then people would stop saying that

But yes at this point it is very clear that the offset is needed. We're already working on the adapter mentioned above, a small MIDI plug that you can put anywhere that will add extra latency, to make all machines have the same latency (and then you can compensate that overall latency with something like U-SYNC).

Simon

[fmq75]

Thank you for the long feedback

A lot of people think of the Nome as a "smaller mutliclock", because it is well, smaller, while in fact the Nome can do so much more than the multiclock. I guess the price difference also emphasizes this. Maybe we should sell it for double the price, then people would stop saying that

But yes at this point it is very clear that the offset is needed. We're already working on the adapter mentioned above, a small MIDI plug that you can put anywhere that will add extra latency, to make all machines have the same latency (and then you can compensate that overall latency with something like U-SYNC).

Simon

oh, i‘m not saying the Nome is a“small multiclock“. I know it does more but basically all i need is a preshifted clock in hardware for a more affordable price Interesting idea with the adapter! But i‘m not sure how it would help in my case. Is the following setup possible with your idea:

Nome is Master and sends analog clock to oxi one. From oxi i use all kinds of outputs (analog and midi) to other machines.

Nome is also sending midi clock out into the adapter and from there to a (drum)machine with latency. If i use a predelay on the adapter then, how would Nome know this and correct it for the audio clock out as well?

Thanks for your quick answer!

[Simon]

Fair enough! And no problems at all if you were, I guess it is smaller and cheaper so it often is people's first impression

Actually your setup makes an excellent point, and it also made me realize the small MIDI adapter is not the appropriate solution for this. We will discuss it and confirm it later, but I think the right solution is a proper add-on module with multiple outputs having knobs controlling their latency, positive or negative... Pretty much like the multiclock. Would it be too wild to call it the "E-RM module"? We might as well give them the credit - also then their name lives on

[fmq75]

Fair enough! And no problems at all if you were, I guess it is smaller and cheaper so it often is people's first impression

Actually your setup makes an excellent point, and it also made me realize the small MIDI adapter is not the appropriate solution for this. We will discuss it and confirm it later, but I think the right solution is a proper add-on module with multiple outputs having knobs controlling their latency, positive or negative... Pretty much like the multiclock. Would it be too wild to call it the "E-RM module"? We might as well give them the credit - also then their name lives on

Oh, you you could also name it „Latencynator“ , i don‘t care

[Simon]

Ha not a bad name to be honest!

[MPrinsen]

Maybe Clockshift Module?

[MPrinsen]

I'm about to buy a TR-1000 too and I really hope the regular Midronome/Nome2 will get an update to add latency to one of the outputs (without any add-on), so you can set a negative delay in the DAW (so the TR-1000 will run in sync) and then add latency again to the other output so all other gear will run in sync too. Otherwise only the TR-1000 will run in sync, while the rest is way early.

Of course you could also just make the TR-1000 send clock to the rest of the gear, but I heard that its clock output isn't very stable either..

[sfdjeo]

Plus one request for this feature to have a delay to one port separate from the other. Us TR1000 beta testers are having to wrangle with 50ms latency which is a total pita.

For now my workaround is to have a negative shift on a separate midi out (not going to the Nome at all) of 50 ms (so -50) and even though the first beat is a little delayed (can't go back in time as we all know) once it's running everything is fine. I guess I could also add a positive delay to every other midi out clock but then I would have to adjust everything else on the grid later on which is more work than just having the first beat a little laggy

Keep us posted about any developments in this area and thanks again for all the support!

[Simon]

Hi all, there is a workaround if you have or can get your hands on a Blokas Midihub - I edited the first post of this topic.

[fmq75]

Fair enough! And no problems at all if you were, I guess it is smaller and cheaper so it often is people's first impression

Actually your setup makes an excellent point, and it also made me realize the small MIDI adapter is not the appropriate solution for this. We will discuss it and confirm it later, but I think the right solution is a proper add-on module with multiple outputs having knobs controlling their latency, positive or negative... Pretty much like the multiclock. Would it be too wild to call it the "E-RM module"? We might as well give them the credit - also then their name lives on

i ordered the Nome now. I`m sure it will at least eliminate the jittery midi clock from logic pro ( i get seasick from it )and helps to record my gear without a delay on the timeline in logic. And this masterclass support deserves more customer

But all this talk about a preshifting clock let me overlook something: Instead of preshifting a clock for problematic gear on one midi out it would also help in my current case to delay the clock on the other midi port out. Much easier to implement i guess and I remember that`s an idea you already had a while ago.

[Simon]

Instead of preshifting a clock for problematic gear on one midi out it would also help in my current case to delay the clock on the other midi port out. Much easier to implement i guess and I remember that`s an idea you already had a while ago.

Well actually it's pretty much the same in terms of implementation. Negative delay basically means a positive delay on everything else (in this case, the other MIDI Clock, the ANLG clocks, and the Metronome).

And thank you for ordering

[fmq75]

Instead of preshifting a clock for problematic gear on one midi out it would also help in my current case to delay the clock on the other midi port out. Much easier to implement i guess and I remember that`s an idea you already had a while ago.

Well actually it's pretty much the same in terms of implementation. Negative delay basically means a positive delay on everything else (in this case, the other MIDI Clock, the ANLG clocks, and the Metronome).

And thank you for ordering

Ah, i see…actually i thought it‘s more like: they all start together if hitting start and the (negative) shifted channel needs some moments to „reach“ the desired value.

I also got this idea: slaving the the nome to an analog clock means i could also use one of OXIs gate outputs and preshift the track with the clock a little. But Nome would be wasted a bit only for this purpose. The good news is, the TR8s runs great as a slave regarding latency. I really can‘t hear or feel something“bad“ when running along my analog clocked gear. So, i‘m locking forward to use Nome for it‘s „traditional“ role and stop stepping on your toes….for now