Question about Nome II and Ableton Link

[Thomachine]

Hi, im a new Nome user. Also new to Ableton coming from Cubase. I have a couple of questions regarding my setup as i experience some strange things.

First off Nome works great with the old Midronome plugin and sending audio clicks. With the u-sync i can see it drifts a bit behind during the recording. Not sure why, but thats my experience so far. Another strange thing when using u-sync is that i need to start Ableton, remove the usb c, and insert again to get bi-directional tempo control to work.

But my main issue is that i have an Akai Force. This unit doesnt slave well to anything midi, so i got Ableton to to use Ableton Link for sync between Ableton and the Akai. And Nome to send sync to some sequencers and modular.

What i see is that when Ableton link is enabled it seems to change the tempo from example 143 to 142.99 on the Nome. When looking at the audio files in Ableton they are also reported to be 142.99. (This number can vary) Sometimes i get something like 143.14. Still, the problem is that everything is drifting out of sync when doing this.

Does anybody else have experience using the Nome with anything together with Ableton Link?

[simntonic]

Hi

U-SYNC does not drift. I am not sure why you think it does, there might be a misconception about what drift is. Drift between two things means that if you leave the recording on for a few minutes (or longer), the two things will be completely out of time with each other. You get that for example if you take 2 machines, set them both at 120 bpm (without syncing them) and start them at the same time. Wait a few minutes, and they will be out of time with each other.

The issue with the bi-directional could be related to how Ableton/macOS detects the Nome. Have you checked the Ableton Control Surface and MIDI settings when it does not work?
I'd suggest to (1) make sure your firmware is up to date and (2) go to Audio MIDI Setup and delete everything called "Nome" or "Midronome" (unplug the device first). That will clean up the setup and potentially solve the issue.

Finally, regarding the BPM when Ableton Link is enabled, this is clearly linked to the "real BPM" of Ableton which goes down a little when synced to the Akai. But that's ok, as long as it matches the Akai. Same as above, you said "everything is drifting" - so it gets more and more out of sync the longer you let it play?

Simon

[Thomachine]

I'll explain my testing method first so we are on the same page regarding whats happening. I send midi to some elektron boxes, and i send analog clock to my modular. On my modular i send the clock directly to an envelope so there is minimal stuff that can make any kind of jitter/variation. I use the sound from the modular as an absolute referance.

I then record everything on separate tracks for several minutes. Then i cut everything from bar 5 and backwards.Then i allign the click, or kick/whatever sound i have on the different tracks. Then i go through the recording and zoom in to see where it lands. And when using u-sync i see that its falling a bit behind. It is not much, but i think a couple of ms after 2-3 minutes. It is harder to "measure" on the sequenced boxes as they have some jitter. Thats why i use the modular sound as a kind of reference.

I turn off warp on all tracks after recording.

I will check the audio midi settings in OSX when i get home and see if i can do something there.

I will also do a longer recording with and without Ableton Link, and see if i can post some results.

[simntonic]

Thanks for the detailed explanation

You said "the recording" is falling a bit behind - is that the envolppe from your modular or the sound from the elektron?

If you are sending MIDI Notes to your elektron boxes, this does not use the clock in anyway. Maybe you use the Nome to send the MIDI Notes over a DIN-MIDI Cable, but as written in the manual the Nome does not change the MIDI Note timing, it simply forwards it when the DAW sends it.

To use the Nome you must use the internal sequencer on your elektron boxes, so the sequence is written on the hardware, and triggered with a "MIDI Start" message (which the Nome does send when you press Play). That way you use the clock from the Nome.

We plan on adding MIDI Note support to U-SYNC in a future version, so you will also be able to send MIDI Notes through the U-SYNC Plugin, and those notes will be snapped to the DAW timing just like the clock is.

Simon

[Thomachine]

Before i got the Nome, i used an Usamo. So i know the difference between midi sync and midi notes, and the limitations of different methods.

I have attached some images of what i mean by falling behind.

The top track is analog clock to my modular triggering an envelope. As this is the most stable way of seeing if something is "off" as it is not any prosessors in between the signals.

The bottom is the Akai Force slaved by Link. First image is at bar 5 and the other is several minutes in.

I couldnt see anything special in the audio midi setup. Only the one that says "dont use". And thats not in use.

[simntonic]

I see, thanks for the extra info, and glad to hear you know what you're doing (the USAMO does convert any MIDI data including Notes though)

I agree with you, this does look like drift. I have a few questions:
1. Is this with Ableton Link turned on?
2. Can you confirm you do not have any kind of MIDI Clock/sync turned on in Ableton (the "EXT" button)
3. Does the SYNC led on the Nome turn on when the DAW is playing?
4. Which Audio interface are you using (the one that is used by your DAW)?

Can you please try to record the ANLG output of the Nome directly (as well as the rest, you can use a splitter to record the right channel for example), and see if it also drifts after a few minutes?

Regarding the Audio MIDI Setup, you need to press Window > "Show MIDI Studio" to see the MIDI devices. In there make sure to delete anything called Nome or related. They will come back when you plug your device again.

Simon

[Thomachine]

1. Is this with Ableton Link turned on?
Yes. This was with Link turned on. I have attached a picture without Link.

2. Can you confirm you do not have any kind of MIDI Clock/sync turned on in Ableton (the "EXT" button)
There is no other midi clock turned on.

3. Does the SYNC led on the Nome turn on when the DAW is playing?
Yes. The Sync is yellow.

4. Which Audio interface are you using (the one that is used by your DAW)?
Im using a Presonus Quantum 4848.

I did delete everything i could in the Midi setup. I had to disconnect the Nome to delete it. It made no difference. Still have to take out the usb cable and reinsert to get the two way communication.

Here is pictures of me sampling the analog click directly out of the Nome. This is without Link enable but with u-sync. As you can see it is alot better, but after a while it "drifts forward" instead of falling behind.

[simntonic]

Thanks for all the info again - I appreciate it

I can see you are using a Thunderbolt interface - we can do some more testing here on the one we have in the office (Presonus 2626) to see if there is any drift. We will also test with Ableton Link.

I will keep you updated here

Simon

PS: please note that we are currently heavily working on U-SYNC 2.0 and if this is an actual U-SYNC issue, it might be solved in 2.0 instead of being released as a patch (2.0 is pretty much a complete rewrite of the U-SYNC architecture, giving even more stable latency between the DAW timing and the hardware, as well as more convenient UI and integration).

[Thomachine]

Thanks! Please report back. As im new to both the Nome and Ableton, i wasnt sure if i did something wrong, or if there was a bug that just affects my setup. It works fine with audio sync. But only without Ableton Link enabled.

[simntonic]

Ahhhh so even with audio sync (using the "Midronome" plugin) it drifts?
Then you could try using a simple audio track (bouncing the plugin's audio), if this drifts as well well then this is coming from Ableton itself and there is not much we can do about it...
Simon