Issue syncing Nome II to Roland T-8 using 24P mode

[ozark2001]

New Nome II Windows user here experiencing a weird delay while using the 24P method to sync...

I do not use the DAW+plugin, but actually get a 24ppq impulse from the Roland T-8 dedivated Sync out, but experience a somewhat random delay before the Nome II gets(?)/sends(?) the start signal to an attached Boss Dr660 Drum machine ... so it kind of does seem to wait on something (to sync beat wise on 1?), but sadly never starts in sync with that T-8, neither when pressing start on the T8 nor the Nome Midi1 start button to which the Boss is attached.

Now the curious thing (and main reason I use this setup) is whenever Ableton joins in and then controls the T8 via its Start/Stop/Clock signals (over usb midi to the T8), everything syncs and starts perfectly fine to the tempo of whatever Ableton has set.
The previous chain and settings do not change thereby, so it is still
[Ableton->(usb midi)->] T8 ->(24ppq signal)->Nome II->Midi1 out->Dr660

just all in sync, started immediately whenever I hit Spacebar and perfectly running.

My guess is it could be due to the T8 changing mode to sync whenever getting a sudden clock+Start signal, while going back to minding its own business when losing that clock after stopping Ableton?

Any idea what exactly could be the cause for Nome not immediately starting though when Ableton is not involved or how to fix it?

Could downgrading to 2.x help to test if the dedicated 24.P mode would work better? As then if the T8 is not needed but still attached via the 24P input, the Nome could auto-fall back to becoming Master to whatever is attached to it?

[Simon]

I do not use the DAW+plugin, but actually get a 24ppq impulse from the Roland T-8 dedivated Sync out, but experience a somewhat random delay before the Nome II gets(?)/sends(?) the start signal to an attached Boss Dr660 Drum machine ... so it kind of does seem to wait on something (to sync beat wise on 1?), but sadly never starts in sync with that T-8, neither when pressing start on the T8 nor the Nome Midi1 start button to which the Boss is attached.

Hi - please create a new topic for a new problem, this has nothing to do with the topic you (originally) posted it in, and is definitely not a bug.

The problem sounds pretty clear to me. This is working:

Code: Select all

Ableton -> (usb midi) -> T8 -> (24ppq signal) -> Nome II -> Midi1 out -> Dr660

But this is not:

Code: Select all

T8 -> (24ppq signal) -> Nome II -> Midi1 out -> Dr660

So the problem must be in the 24ppq signal sent by the T8. Could you try to record that signal back into Ableton so you can look at it, see if it's missing pulses or something? The pulses need to be sharp and loud otherwise the Nome might miss some.

You can use this tool to generate the 24ppq pulses: https://download.simntonic.com/software ... or-1.0.zip
(it's quite old but should still be working fine - as long as you get audio files out of it, it's all that matters).

Other thoughts:

1. Do you have autoplay enabled on the Nome?
2. do you connect the Nome to Ableton somehow (in this setup, you should not)?
3. In the setup that does not work, can you listen to the Nome's metronome to see if that's on time with the T-8?

[ozark2001]

Hi Simon,

thanks for your reply!

Could you try to record that signal back into Ableton so you can look at it, see if it's missing pulses or something?

Yes, will do that next and get back with some info about both signals, with and without Ableton controlling the T8.

Other thoughts:

1. Do you have autoplay enabled on the Nome?

For midi1 out to the 660? I think I have, will double check.
Since I just got the device, still trying to memorize all the abbreviations

[*] do you connect the Nome to Ableton somehow (in this setup, you should not)?

That could be, as I just looked out for the T8 to connect in Ableton and all worked fine, but will double check.

[*] In the setup that does not work, can you listen to the Nome's metronome to see if that's on time with the T-8?[/list]

Yes, will try to connect the audio out of the Nome to the mixer as well to analyze.

As you mentioned anyone can freely up or downgrade, how can I downgrade to the version with the 24.P. mode?

[Simon]

For midi1 out to the 660? I think I have, will double check.
Since I just got the device, still trying to memorize all the abbreviations

That's fair enough! The auto play is called A.PL, check its value is either bot (both) or Mi.1 (MIDI Out 1).

As you mentioned anyone can freely up or downgrade, how can I downgrade to the version with the 24.P. mode?

Unfortunately that's not true anymore since about FW 3.0. The new firmware are much more complex and have changed a lot of things, downgrading could lead to strange issues. Besides, Nome II did not even exist before Firmware 3.2 so it has never been tested with older firmwares
And in any case I doubt the 2.4.P. mode would solve anything - the code has never stopped improving since the old firmwares, and the current 24P mode is much more solid and reliable today than the 2.4.P. was years ago

[ozark2001]

That's fair enough! The auto play is called A.PL, check its value is either bot (both) or Mi.1 (MIDI Out 1).

I checked the setting and it is on Midi1. Also nothing going from Ableton to Nome, only from Ableton to T8 and from T8 to Nome.

But I noticed this:
Without Ableton, the T8 sends out a continous 24ppq signal, and the Nome SYNC is constantly lit plus the tempo locked. Once Ableton loads up but is not running, the T8 goes into synced mode itself, but does no longer send out the 24ppq as long as Ableton is not running. Once the T8 gets a start signal, it immediatly syncs and sends out the 24ppq to Nome, where SYNC lights up again and it is started also immediately, without a gap.

I recorded the 24ppq signal for both instances and they look identical as far as I can tell.

The random time the Nome takes to start to me seems related to being already in constant SYNC vs. SYNC lighten up whenever Ableton starts.

As you mentioned anyone can freely up or downgrade, how can I downgrade to the version with the 24.P. mode?

Unfortunately that's not true anymore since about FW 3.0. The new firmware are much more complex and have changed a lot of things, downgrading could lead to strange issues. Besides, Nome II did not even exist before Firmware 3.2 so it has never been tested with older firmwares

Ah that makes sense and not possible to try out then I still think given the above behaviour sometjing like 24.P could help in this case. If needed I can try to capture a video too.

[Simon]

The random time the Nome takes to start to me seems related to being already in constant SYNC vs. SYNC lighten up whenever Ableton starts.

Ok I think it all makes sense now: when syncing to 24P signal, the Nome takes the first pulse (the start if the signal) as the start of the beat.
When you sync the T-8 to Ableton, there is no signal and then the signal starts on the one - so everything is in time.
When you don't, then the "start of the bar" is whenever you started the signal - and that's also what the delay is: one of the key feature of the Nome is to make sure everything is in time, so it waits till the next bar to start your machine.

If you listen to the Nome's metronome it will all make sense. You can also "look" at the metronome by checking the TAP led.

So to solve this you have to stop the 24P signal somehow, and get it to start again when you press play on the T-8.

Simon

[ozark2001]

The random time the Nome takes to start to me seems related to being already in constant SYNC vs. SYNC lighten up whenever Ableton starts.

Ok I think it all makes sense now: when syncing to 24P signal, the Nome takes the first pulse (the start if the signal) as the start of the beat.
When you sync the T-8 to Ableton, there is no signal and then the signal starts on the one - so everything is in time.
When you don't, then the "start of the bar" is whenever you started the signal - and that's also what the delay is: one of the key feature of the Nome is to make sure everything is in time, so it waits till the next bar to start your machine.

Right, this seems to explain whats happening in the video I made:
https://my.opendesktop.org/public.php/d ... accept=zip

In first part it shows the sync without Ableton and second part with Ableton.

I just wonder if there is a constant 24ppq signal send for tempo reasons, how Roland thought any synced equipment would be sync started as well, since as seen in the video it seems impossible to get the T8 and Nome to sync start together.

How exactly does the Nome know when the T8 has been started? Is it possible for the Nome to receive/follow the start/stop send over usb when the Play button on the T8 is used? Or is there a more general way to make Nome start immediately instead of trying to delay-match the sync signal regardless if the Play button on the Nome or T8 is used? Either would make the 24P much more useful in that constant locked in sync mode

[Simon]

How exactly does the Nome know when the T8 has been started?

Well if you think about it: before it starts it sends constant 24ppq pulses. When it starts it sends... exactly the same. So the Nome has absolutely no way of knowning when it starts. Ironically, if you look at the ANLG output of the Nome, this is exactly why there are two modes: "constant" and a "FOL" (start the pulses when you press play).

Is it possible for the Nome to receive/follow the start/stop send over usb when the Play button on the T8 is used? Or is there a more general way to make Nome start immediately instead of trying to delay-match the sync signal regardless if the Play button on the Nome or T8 is used?

Neither of these is possible unfortunately, and even if they were they would not guarantee precise sync, you might easily be off by 1 pulse if you do it this way.

But it sounds like you are going around a problem that should be simple: you are trying to slave a master clock to your drum machine. Why not slaving the machine to the clock?
Checking the T-8 manual that should be pretty easy, and the Nome has countless clock options.