Sim'n Tonic Forums

Soooo... everybody seems to be dying for that Ableton Link integration - let's talk about it!

I've been giving it A LOT of thought. Without doing major changes to both the case, the interface, basically the whole hardware - it will not work since it needs both WiFi and a decent interface to select the WiFi, write the password, etc.

So here is my solution: a module! Basically a small plastic dongle that is connected to the device, either over USB (then it would power the Midronome as well), or via audio sync (same that is used to link multiple Midronomes together).
It will accept a computer keyboard (maybe even via bluetooth) and with a small screen so you can select the WiFi and write the password.
Then it will send and receive Ableton Link commands from/to the Midronome.

What do you guys think?

/Simon

such dongle would be a nice addon for post campaign. if the audio port would be used, do you loose the audio inout clock than? same for the usb port.

No the audio port used would be the audio out - so you will lose the metronome that's true. If it uses the USB we won't lose anyting

Hi all

I've been giving this a bit more thoughts, and I think a module would really work. The Module will have WiFi (for Ableton Link), Bluetooth (for configuration and control), and an audio input (6.35mm TRS balanced mono) to perform beat detection / tempo following. It will be very thin, plastic, and will clip itself on the side of the Midronome.

I have been talking about it with a more experienced electronics engineer, and we decided together it would be much better to have a specific connexion between the module on the Midronome.

What does that mean for you users?

• More efficient (faster) communication between the module and the device
• The module will not use the USB or the audio port - i.e. the "basic" functions of the device are unchanged
• In the future, the possibility to make your own modules (that is gonna to be SO GREAT)
• It would also mean that to install the module you would need to remove the back plate (the red one), clip the module on, and connect it to the main board. Obviously without putting your hands all over the electronics.

great news simon.

again a cool picture i thought the module will be inside the midronome. but this way it is even cooler. and maybe more modules could be swaped. i have no clue what else could be made

regarding the beat detection. i can connect an audio cable from my dj mixer to the module and see than the bpm right?

Not exactly - the Midronome will internally detect the *exact* tempo and adjust so things are in time. But it will show a "rounded" version of this tempo.

For example say the detected tempo is 126.1465372346 bpm, the device will run actually at that tempo but the display will show 126.

Will this module create its own hotspot then?
I'd suggest to also include an ethernet port which will always be more reliable and could come in handy when you forget the Wi-fi credentials or something

A wired network will always just work. Of course for iPad or iPhone, you'd still need a wireless router or use the built-in Wi-Fi of the dongle.

I haven't used Ableton Link too often. Does the tempo control work in both ways? Eg. you can change the tempo both on computer OR the Midronome and the other device will follow?

Yes exactly, that's the best feature of Link, that you can contorl the tempo both ways. Everybody becomes the master as soon as they change the tempo.
I guess that's also where the name "Link" comes from, showing a two-way control

As for Ethernet, it will be a lot of work and will require extra hardware (so price will go up). I personally do not think it adds much as the key point with Link is to be able to join and start playing quickly. Also I do not know how reliable Link is anyways in terms of timing precision, so if you want strong reliability and precision, I would still suggest to use the basic functionalities of the Midronome

But like all other functionalities - I'm all ears, we can see how many people want it

Ethernet is safer for live sets. WiFi is not always reliable. But Wifi also has its advantages.
Maybe develop 2 dongles? Or a cheap WiFi only version and a more expensive one with WiFi and Ethernet?

That's an interesting debate! Because I did not think Ableton Link is really designed for Live use? ... WiFi is not only unreliable but also the way Link syncs things, the fact everybody is a master - it is all about making things easy which is super important (and amazingly done) for a quick jam or quick recording/creative session. Which is the reason why I think it will be a great add to the Midronome.

But once the music is written/recorded/done, and you want to perform Live, then you need something reliable, and in my musician's opinion Link does not do that, whether on WiFi or not. (but you know what does? a stable and jitter-free MIDI Clock... )

Again - just my opinion, I'd love to hear it if someone can argue otherwise

Simon wrote: ↑12 Aug 2022, 06:58 Yes exactly, that's the best feature of Link, that you can contorl the tempo both ways. Everybody becomes the master as soon as they change the tempo.
I guess that's also where the name "Link" comes from, showing a two-way control

As for Ethernet, it will be a lot of work and will require extra hardware (so price will go up). I personally do not think it adds much as the key point with Link is to be able to join and start playing quickly. Also I do not know how reliable Link is anyways in terms of timing precision, so if you want strong reliability and precision, I would still suggest to use the basic functionalities of the Midronome

But like all other functionalities - I'm all ears, we can see how many people want it

Hi Simon,

I recently posted in the facebook group about my use case for a device that could receive MIDI clock and turn it into an Ableton Link signal.
I don't see any reason why this isn't achievable and I'd be happy to pay in excess of £300 all in for a device that could keep Traktor in time with Ableton Link devices and give DJs the freedom to beat-match manually.

I think that by not putting an Ethernet port on an Ableton Link device will drastically hamper it's performance IMO, especially if you're only using a 2.4GHz connection to keep the cost down.
There is also the fact that lighting designers which rely on Pioneer Pro DJ Link and Ableton Link to communicate with DJs (using software like ShowKontrol), absolutely need a wired LAN. A midronome with ethernet would allow live performers and DJs to exist in the same ecosystem.

This would be a hugely powerful tool and I think the market for Midronome would only get larger, as people like Mojaxx from Beatsource and the Crossfader YouTube team would definitely review the unit with an Ableton Link add on. Please, please, please built it!

Simon wrote: ↑19 Nov 2022, 13:31 That's an interesting debate! Because I did not think Ableton Link is really designed for Live use? ... WiFi is not only unreliable but also the way Link syncs things, the fact everybody is a master - it is all about making things easy which is super important (and amazingly done) for a quick jam or quick recording/creative session. Which is the reason why I think it will be a great add to the Midronome.

But once the music is written/recorded/done, and you want to perform Live, then you need something reliable, and in my musician's opinion Link does not do that, whether on WiFi or not. (but you know what does? a stable and jitter-free MIDI Clock... )

Again - just my opinion, I'd love to hear it if someone can argue otherwise

Link is far more powerful than MIDI clock. With MIDI clock there is no phase information to share across your setup. For example, lets say a track playing from Ableton or Maschine shifts it's beatgrid by a couple of beats during a breakdown, then when everything comes back in, tough your other gear (especially say a drum machine) is now out of phase.

With Link, all devices will be synced on the first beat of every bar, at all times.

Hi Lee!

Thanks for writing here. Awesome to get that kind of information, super useful! There are so many usages the Midronome touches already, it's hard to know them all so it's very useful when people bring another one to my attention.
Never thought about Lighting designer until now, and even the DJ world is still more for the future (what I told most DJs who contacted me was to wait for Beat Detection (also coming with the module), so they can send their beat into the machine which will then generate MIDI Clock for their MIDI devices).

The big advantage with the module approach is that it's easy to make different modules for different things.

Not hiding anything, my idea for the module was to use an ESP32 chip, as it has Bluetooth, WiFi, and it comes in a format that is already CE/FCC certified (which will make certification of the Midronome module much easier). Also this will make the module very "flat" and neat-looking, the biggest thing being the audio input connector for the Beat Detection (using a 3.5mm jack would make it even smaller).

I could then maybe make a second version, with Ethernet (will require an extra chip), and a large jack for Beat Detection. It will look a lot more bulky.

Let's see when I get closer to designing the module - still a lot to do before getting there

Simon

Simon wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 10:09
Let's see when I get closer to designing the module - still a lot to do before getting there

Simon

Hey Simon,

Any news on progress?

Of the module? Don't expect it for at least a year, probably 2 (it took me 3 years to develop the Midronome, and just to take another example the guys making Reliq were working on it for 5 years before even starting to market it )

If you're asking about the Midronome well I send regular updates on the mailing list - for now shipping is estimated around the end of April.

This is really disappointing.

You started this thread to gauge interest and many people have requested Ableton Link. Now you're saying it will take TWO YEARS?

This has always been very clear: this is an add-on module to a device that is not even made yet. So yes, first I need to make the device, then handle quite a few firmware updates, potential firmware bugs, probably design a few of these simpler modules, and only after all this I will start designing this add-on module... Or maybe not - it depends a lot what people want. Nothing is guaranteed at this point except what is already implemented in the device. This is why this forum is called "Feature Requests"

If you have pre-ordered a device on Kickstarter and feel like this is not what you ordered, then please send me an email and I'll be happy to refund you.

I'm all about honesty, and feel very sorry to read your message - I try to communicate very clearly but it's a hard balance to keep since most people want brief and easy-to-read information, skimming through the info. I am also a one-man company, so things go slow.

Simon wrote: ↑27 Feb 2023, 09:16 I'm all about honesty, and feel very sorry to read your message - I try to communicate very clearly but it's a hard balance to keep since most people want brief and easy-to-read information, skimming through the info. I am also a one-man company, so things go slow.

I understand that completely, but your website has ABLETON LINK and the LOGO very prominently, as if you're in active development to build this feature. I think it's really disingenuous to entice people into your ecosystem, promising new features that you know full well are YEARS away and have not even entered the R&D stage.

Can you imagine if Native Instruments or Pioneer DJ put the product logos of other companies on their website, when they knew full well the two companies were not even in contact? It's very, very poor communication and bad optics from a customer perspective.
I would also presume that if they knew about it, Ableton would ask you to remove such information, because you clearly aren't paying to get access to their API.